Issue #69: Talking to our favorite 25-year-old...
About how old we really feel, shopping, when kids should get their first phone, and more.
How old do you feel?
It’s a question I (Aja) haven’t stopped asking — myself, my friends, my family members — since my friend Lacey asked me several months ago.1
I’m 29, and I feel both older and younger than that. Older, when I talk to a Gen Z coworker who primarily communicates with his friends via Snapchat. Younger, when I talk to my friends, many of whom are expecting their first or second kid.
, the smart, funny Gen Z writer behind , feels “sooo classically 25.” Here’s what you need to know about Ochuko: She has a singular voice and a knack for spotting trends and ideas as they’re on the upswing… and has quickly become one of the people Aliza and I rely on to keep up with — and often understand — the culture.
Aliza and I chatted with Ochuko about our ages, Gen Z and millennials, social media, recent purchases, what we’ve been listening to, and much more.
On how old we feel:
Ochuko: I feel soooo classically 25. I have a good job and a great group of friends; I’m in a long-term relationship… all the boxes are ticked, but I feel slightly angsty all the time? Some days I’m so proud of myself for “adulting well.” Other days I’m convinced I’m doing everything wrong. There are also so many things that still terrify me, like taxes and logistics of almost any kind. My mental health is great, but I could do a lot more for myself in the “health and wellness” category. Being 25 feels like every day I’m finding some blind spot or the other — always something I could be doing better.
Aliza: I loved being 25. At 33, I feel more confident and self-assured… but also somehow less in-control, especially of my body. I constantly move between feeling proud of myself and my body (which gave me a baby! and ran a marathon! and lets me travel the world!) to disappointed and frustrated that I don’t look/feel the same as I did in high school. Or even my twenties. All of a sudden, my body requires a lot more “maintenance” to feel good — stretching, acupuncture, etc.
I’m sure when I’m 45 and 65 and 85 I’ll look back at photos of me now and think, “Damn! She was hot and she was fun and she was being herself.” I’m trying (operative word) to think that way in the present.
Aja: You are hot and fun and unabashedly yourself. Just saying.
On when kids should get their first phone:
Ochuko: I got my first phone in the seventh grade, and my 14-year-old sister got hers at the same time. That’s the same age most of our friends got theirs, and it worked out great. So I don’t have a specific age in mind, but I like the idea of just going with what most of the other kids are doing? It can feel pretty shitty to be left out. My sister still has some restrictions with her phone, like my parents take it away during weekdays and exam seasons. She hates it and constantly tells me as much.
Of course back home [in Nigeria], phones aren’t allowed in schools and definitely not in classrooms. Might be a hot take but I think phones in classrooms are whack!
Aja: Wait, kids can use their phones in the classroom now?! I was in tenth grade when my parents bought me a phone, and I think they should’ve given me one sooner. I remember standing by our house phone, vibrating with anxiety, as I tried to figure out which friend I should call. If I asked Alexis to hang out, and she said she was busy, and then I asked Carla to hang out, but she was with Alexis…! The whole prospect was so stressful I often called no one at all. I wished desperately that I could send a few simple “what’s up?” texts. When I have a kid, I’ll get them a phone when most of their peers get one.
Aliza: That does sound hard. I got a phone in seventh grade, ahead of some friends. But it was just a phone; I didn’t have texting for two more years. When I did get an iPhone, there was no Instagram or Snapchat or other social media apps.
Sam and I talk about trying to wait as long as possible with Jude — like early high school? I’m cautiously optimistic other millennial parents will feel similarly, because I also wouldn’t want my kids to be the last ones. A friend with older children was telling me recently how refreshing it is to see her 13-year-old son and his friends hang out without the distraction of phones. Because when they get them — as her 15-year-old son and his friends have — the dynamics change.
The last things we bought:
Ochuko: This book called The Anthropologists. I saw someone recommend it on Instagram, I went on Goodreads, it passed the vibe check and was in my cart so fast. Trying to limit myself to five new books a month but I'm failing spectacularly. But these days I’m buying a lot more second-hand books so my wallet and my mind feel a lot better.
The last clothing item I bought was this dress from Zara. Got so many compliments on it this summer.
Aja: I’ve mostly bought used clothing for the last several months, after realizing the items are often more affordable, interesting, and fun/challenging to wear (in a good way) than new stuff. I found an incredible embroidered Miss Sixty skirt from the 90s in a vintage pop-up in Cambridge; I still need to find an excuse to wear it.
Non-clothing-wise, I got some decaf cold brew to try since I’m trying to drink less caffeine, and this seemed like a nice treat on that journey.
Aliza: With Jude’s second birthday coming up, I bought some upgrades for his play setup — a new balance bike, peel and stick chalkboard wallpaper for our kitchen, and a step stool.
I’ve tried to scale back on shopping for myself — relying mostly on Nuuly rentals when I need a fashion dopamine hit. But I was recently in NYC for work, and it’s hard not to shop when you’re in the middle of Soho. I stopped into Buck Mason — one of my favorites stores — on my walk home from the office and ended up buying this black tank that’s been in the weekly rotation ever since.
What we’re listening to:
Ochuko: Music-wise, a lot of Asa and Declan McKenna. Couldn’t be more different, but between the both of them, they’ve got my emotions covered.
And I listen to a lot of “industry” podcasts for my newsletter. But the podcasts I listen to for fun are I Said What I Said (Nigerian women gabbing about life), Two Girls One Books Pod (my favorite bookish podcast) and Murder With My Husband (my very guilty pleasure).
Aliza: Ack, I do not know either of those artists — going to Spotify now. These days, I play a lot of Taylor Swift, The Revivalists, James Taylor, Preservation Hall Jazz Band, Kacey Musgraves, and Maggie Rogers. All nostalgic, all feel-good.
New(er) to me music I’m loving: , Chappell (duh), and Lucius.
I was on an extended break from news podcasts like The Daily and Ezra Klein — but (like many of us?) I’m feeling more energized and want to stay in the loop again.
Aja: Laura Marling, maybe my favorite singer of all time, just released a new album (I’m seeing her in tour in New York in November!) so I’ve been listening to that a lot.
I’m a lover and connoisseur of the “chat podcast,” in which a few fun, cool people (typically but not always women) gab. In order of how quickly I listen to new episodes: Celebrity Memoir Book Club (check out our interview), Lemme Say This, Giggly Squad, and Critics at Large.
Aliza: Ooh, and we both love with Claire and Erica.
On when we feel most confident:
Ochuko: When I’m with my friends or my boyfriend. They think I’m great, so then I think I’m great.
Aja: Probably at work — right after I’ve presented during a meeting or coached a team member through something. I get a lot of validation from my job (for better and definitely for worse; when something goes wrong, I take it very personally.)
Aliza: When I’m talking with a friend about being a mom. Also, when I’m outside and not overthinking things as much.
On whether we want to (eventually or currently) buy a home:
Ochuko: I do, eventually, but I haven’t given it much thought because everything I see on the news terrifies me.
Aja: Not anytime in the near future. We love our neighborhood, but buying would probably price us out — and neither of us want the responsibility and headaches (emotional, financial, etc.) of owning a house right now.
Aliza: I think so. We’ve put off making this decision until we have a better idea of where we’re likely to settle down when my husband finishes grad school. I’ve basically given myself a temporary ban on checking Zillow listings. (Easier said than done, especially when so many friends are buying houses right now.)
On where we get our news:
Ochuko: My inbox. I subscribe to pretty much every news publication there is.
Aja: I usually hear about things first through Twitter or TikTok and then will go deeper with a New York Times article. I’ve been trying to diversify which outlets I read and have really been liking Semafor and 404 Media.
Aliza: Podcasts like The Daily or NYT headlines on Instagram. I love listening to NPR when I’m in the car. Also, my husband — he’s a political scientist, so he’s always well-informed.
On the last things we celebrated:
Ochuko: One of my best friends from college turned 26 last month and we had the most low-key but wholesome time celebrating her. Drinks, wings, pizza. Lots of conversation — it was amazing. I’m not big on nightlife, but I love a good dinner, I love a good brunch. A picnic!!! Food! I celebrate with food.
Aja: Aliza and I went to Giulia, a great Italian restaurant in Cambridge, to celebrate a Platonic Love milestone. When I’m celebrating, I’m usually going out to a nice dinner. I used to go out for nice dinners more often — but about three years ago I realized they’re better as special occasions and for a random Friday, I’d rather eat somewhere casual and affordable.
Aliza: My friend Emily’s bachelorette — which Ochuko, you would’ve loved — was the perfect balance of fun and low-key. We ate our friend Lauren’s chicken and veggie kebabs, lounged around and talked, covered ourselves in temporary tattoos, and sang/danced our hearts out at a piano bar.
I’ve also been thinking about how we celebrate random/untraditional milestones, thanks to this great
interview from with Kelsey Lim. Kelsey hosted a 300-person party to celebrate her ten-year anniversary in NYC. So cool! I’m definitely going to do something to commemorate the — unfortunately ongoing — fertility journey I have been on over the last six-plus months.On our relationships with social media:
Ochuko: I’ve talked about this a bit in my newsletter, but I don’t spend a lot of time on social media. I think I'm on there enough to know what’s happening, but social media is more for information and less entertainment. I use Instagram the most, Reddit a fair bit, and TikTok sporadically. I never use X.
Aja: Most: Substack and Reddit. Least: (surprisingly) Instagram. I almost never post on Instagram, which I think makes it less interesting to me. And when I do go on, I exclusively watch Stories.
Aliza: I’m still on Instagram, mostly. I downloaded TikTok in the depths of COVID and I loved it so much I had to delete it. But I love when my sister and friends send videos.
Niche affinity groups on Facebook have been surprisingly helpful, especially since I became a mom — including Moms of Camberville (I bet most neighborhoods/towns have something similar?), Asherman’s Syndrome Awareness & Support, and Respectful Sleep Training/Learning.
On our relationship with other generations:
Ochuko: So I have loads of young millennial friends, and my boyfriend could as well be a millennial. With people in my life, I don’t really make that millennial, Gen Z distinction, you know? Sometimes I think the whole generational conversation is very much an online thing, but then I think about some of my older millennial coworkers and I'm like yup, these stereotypes are real. But I never go around thinking “how do I bridge the generational divide” or whatever. I just don’t think about the world that way. Except when I’m writing, I guess.
Aja: I’m definitely afraid of growing out-of-touch — and I dislike how every generation ends up being pitted against each other — so I make a real effort to both keep up with Gen Z and see their point-of-view. TikTok and Reddit are both really helpful here. I think my friends and I reference Gen Z culture a lot without always knowing it… For example, I remember when we all started wearing crew socks without talking about it last year. It was just the new thing.
Aliza: Yeah, much of my (our?) fixation with Gen Z revolves around style and fashion trends. Sometimes it’s hard to figure out which trends will work for me — as an elder-ish millennial — and what I’ve got to let go.
And I love what Aja said about generations getting “pitted against each other.” I actually feel kind of defensive when people talk shit about Gen Z, and I think it’s because I remember being on the receiving end (not so long ago!) of the shit talk when millennials first entered the workforce. Sure, some aspects of Gen Z culture feel young and naive (it’s inevitable), but I’m grateful for the ways Gen Z is expanding our minds about what society could look like, and you know, making the world a better place.
Now, we want to hear from you:
How old are you, and how old do you feel? What’s your relationship to the other generations? Do you have any inter-generational friendships? Anything we didn’t ask Ochuko you’re curious about?
As a heads up, the next time you hear from us will be after Labor Day — we’re taking next week off!
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It’s also a question Julia Louis-Dreyfus asks every Wiser Than Me podcast guest.
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its mee! omg this was so fun :)
I love this question! I just turned 27 so that makes me elder gen z by most definitions (born in 1997)! My husband is 31, so that makes me feel slightly older than I am. I graduated college at 20, so I started my career (which I am still in) earlier than most and had peers who were older than me. I had our twins when I was 25, so that put me in the same “new mom” peer group as people who could be anywhere from 20-40. All that to say, sometimes I feel about 5 years older than I am.
Also, I work on a college campus, where (not to be weird, but) I get older and the age of students stays the same! That makes it really interesting to observe trends and how I do or don’t connect with them. Even though we are technically the same generation, I feel pretty different than them. Some of this is that I am Married With Kids but also I think it has to do with how old you were when iPhones entered the mainstream. My peers and I didn’t get iPhones until high school, whereas it’s much younger for today’s college students. It makes a huge difference in how they think and operate.