Issue #61: There’s “perfect Leslie” and “messy shit show Leslie” — and they’re all melded together.
Debut novelist and top Substack writer Leslie Stephens gives us an honest peek into her life and work.
You’ll recognize ’ name from Monday’s issue and her wonderful newsletter Morning Person. Earlier this week, Leslie published her debut novel, You’re Safe Here, a timely, clever, and white-knuckled thriller on the convergence of wellness, motherhood, and technology.
Given Leslie’s inspiring career which — much like her novel — draws connections between human behavior and technology, we were excited to go behind the scenes for our Friends with Cool Jobs series.
Interview by . Edited by .
Leslie and Aliza talked about the master’s in counseling she’s getting, her struggles with perfectionism, and what she loved (and hated!) about writing her first book…
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On claiming the “author” title:
I just started calling myself a writer this year. But I guess publishing a book makes someone an author. It’s a long road!
Her first job:
I’ve always been a huge reader, and I always wanted to write a book. But I also really wanted to be a vet… I interned at a vet’s office in high school. My name tag said “Official Shit Cleaner.” (I’m serious.)
On her divorce:
Two years ago, I made the decision to leave my husband. I was turning 30, I was going to counseling school, and I found myself asking for the first time in my life: Who am I? What am I going through? I’d been good enough at faking it — that everything was working — until I left my marriage and my whole world kind of exploded. If that hadn’t happened, I probably could have coasted for a really long time without ever digging into what was happening with me and trying to understand it.
On writing honestly and with intention:
This huge explosion [divorce] allowed me to start writing about things more honestly on Morning Person. I realized, Oh, people are interested in this and this isn’t something that I have to hide away in a cave and deal with by myself. Other people find value in hearing other people’s stories — including mine.
I’m fascinated by humans and what it means to be a person. In school, I’m interested in technology addiction — specifically ecotherapy and attention restoration therapy, both of which involve focusing on more outdoor activities in nature — and I can further explore these topics using myself as the “subject” via the newsletter. I’m often reading the same books for Morning Person as my counseling work. For example, right now I’m working on an issue about dopaminergic activities and how they impact us — but I’m talking about that through the lens of shopping addiction and buying behaviors.
On perfectionism, social media, and being a “messy shit show” sometimes:
I used to work for a brand that was very much about showing up in a certain way. It’s a sort of perfectionism that still feels attainable and approachable: “Look at my life. It’s perfect, and now I’m going to show you how your life can be perfect.” I loved the company and the content I was creating — but writing this content every single day, and spending time on Instagram or the blog, I started to believe in the perfectionism. The lines became really blurry between me and the persona I was creating.
I have to be really careful and mindful to not go back to this “perfectionist robot” place. For example, As long as I drink green juice and do a specific workout and start work exactly at 9:00 am and finish everything on my to-do list, everything will be okay, I’ll be happy, and my family will be happy. There’s a lot of comfort in feeling that. It’s scarier to acknowledge that’s not true and safety isn’t real. Now, when I’m on social media, I’m constantly reminding myself it’s okay to feel inspired by this person, but it’s not realistic.
Because I own the brand and the voice for my newsletter, I can steer the ship in a different direction. It feels far more representative of who I really am. There’s “perfect Leslie” and “messy shit show Leslie” — and they’re all melded together.
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On writing a book:
You’re Safe Here gave me an outlet to explore all of these other topics — privilege, motherhood, love, relationships, and how to choose a path in life. I did all of my edits while I was in my counseling program. The understanding that I gained about my characters comes from what I was learning in school. I’d have the characters doing things and I didn’t understand why, so I was really able to flesh that out. My characters are all trying to figure themselves out and what’s meaningful to them.
What she loves about the writing process:
It turns out that writing is incredibly easy for me. I love it! I hand-wrote most of my book in journals — I’d wake up every morning at 6:00 AM excited to write. It was my opportunity to just play.
But editing is the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life…
On imposter syndrome:
I got a ton of imposter syndrome during the editing process. There were three or four pretty big rounds of edits — I changed something big, sent it back to my editors, then they sent it back. Every single time, at first I thought, Oh, I get what they’re saying. This is going to be great. Then I’d be in the thick of editing, really getting into the weeds, and this terrible negative self-talk would happen: Who’s going to read this book? I have no idea what I’m doing. Maybe I just shouldn’t do this.
I just had to keep slogging through it. Eventually, each time, it clicked into place.
On the importance of phone and social media breaks:
On days when I’m doing really tough editing, I do not pick up my phone until I’m finished. I still take breaks, but instead I go for walks, eat snacks, things like that. When I look at Instagram, it fucks with my attention for hours afterwards. I’ve since learned that’s backed by a ton of research.
Advice for readers thinking of a career pivot:
I’m 32 years old and I’m smack dab in the middle of the pack in my graduate program. What I’ll say about both careers I’ve chosen is that they’re so great to start at any point in your life — it could be your second, third, fourth career. I also think that the later in life you start, the better you’ll be, because you have so much more life experience.
That feels especially true with writing. A lot of my readers ask for advice for starting a novel or starting a Substack. If this is something you’ve always wanted to do, you truly just have to start it. Just start and see what happens.
Before you go…
Leslie shared a few more of her favorite things with us:
The daily products she can’t live without:
Dr. Loretta Urban Antioxidant Sunscreen, which lends just enough coverage for a nice glow, and Revitabrow for shaped, slightly tinted brows are my two daily go-tos for work from home makeup.
Books that have inspired her professionally:
Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird was invaluable during the early stages of writing my novel, when the task felt insurmountably huge and I needed a pep talk! I also followed Courtney Maum's Before and After the Book Deal to a tee when navigating the process of getting it published.
And what she’s currently reading:
I'm traveling for my book tour, so I've had a lot of time to read on planes. I'm in the middle of an advanced copy of Long Island Compromise by Taffy Brodesser-Akner which comes out in July — she is such an insightful observer of family dynamics.
On her typical everyday uniform:
Vintage Levi's or bootcut leggings and a high-neck tank top. In winter, I'll throw on a sweater and Patagonia raincoat (such is life in Portland, Oregon) with Blundstones. In summer, it's Birkenstocks or Tevas.
And currently listening to on repeat:
I made a playlist for my first outdoor cookout of summer, and have been listening to it on repeat — but honestly, I've been hyper-fixated on TORTURED POETS DEPARTMENT. I felt “eh” about it the first time I listened, and it's grown on me rapidly.
We’ll be putting that playlist on repeat this summer, too. Thanks so much for sharing, Leslie — we cannot wait to read You’re Safe Here!
In case you missed it:
The most popular link in Monday’s issue was the tank top Aliza just had to pick up in two colors. I’ve already worn it to the beach and a Saturday night out with a bachelorette trip. So versatile!
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Thank you for having me!!! So enjoyed chatting, for your thoughtful questions, and for the safe space to say things like “instagram fucks with our attention” 😂😬♥️
Great interview, I always love and appreciate Leslie's honestly. Just received my copy of You're Safe Here last night, cannot wait to dive in!